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My daughters significant other is learning to play classical. My daughter wants me to build a classical for him.
I do not know much about classical.
If I want to make him a very nice guitar:
What B/s do you recomend?
What wood for top?
Which plan for classical would be preferable?
Thanks so much,

Before the experts chips in, I have to say that the almost univeral choice of top woods for classical builder are either Euro spruce or WRC, with the majority still going for Euro. As to back and sides, East Indian Rosewood seems to be the default wood of choice now, though I'm just starting one with Madagascan Rosewood.

I still prefer the sound of a traditionally braced 'Torres' type design, I'm currently playing an Aram Torres model and the sound is pretty good. And I'm currently working on an homage to Torres FE19. However, if your happier with using a bolt on neck rather than the traditional Spanish heel, then the Fleta plans might be worth looking at. Russell here, built his first classical using the Fleta design and it worked out rather well.

Don't necessarily listen to me though, take note of what Joshua, Shawn, John etc etc. recommend.

ColinColin S39051.3160069444

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Colin,
Your opinion is one I hoped to receive

I agree with Colin... Euro Spruce for the top, one of the rosewoods for the back and sides (cypress is my favorite though), and you can download the Torres FE19 plan from here

The only change I'd make is that most people today prefer a slightly wider neck (52mm nut is pretty standard)

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Which "Euro" tops are preferable?

Italian Spruce is probably most readily available, and I really like it. Any of the Alpine spruces would be great.

Carpathian Spruce would probably work very well and is easy to get too.

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There's the story about a classical guitar performer meeting the public after a performance. One audience memeber said the guitar sounded so good. The performer looked at his guitar in the case and said "It doesn't sound so good right now!" In other words, the player is the lion's share of what makes a guitar sound good or bad. Recommending a guitar for your daughter's friend without hearing him play is a crapshoot. European spruce guitars are the most difficult to make sound good; the right hand has to be "right on". A glancing, side-to-side, pluck will sound thin and naily on a European spruce top. Cedar is far more forgiving of right hand technique. When the right hand is optimized for spruce the resultant sound is unequalled, IMO. Very few young players however are paying really close attention to digging in to the strings and getting the strings to move perpendicularly to the top, which is what spruce requires.

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I've built using carpathian spruce from the vendor on the luthiersauction site and I was very pleased. EIR b/s does seem to be the defacto standard. Maple would be a good choice as well.

I think a lot of first classicals tend to be over braced or built too heavily in general. I know my first was.

Tom Rein brings up an interesting point. If someone has had strict training as a player and mimics his teacher's attack and nuances it may be difficult to adjust their right hand tecnique from cedar to spruce.

But then again there often are as many differences between two spruce guitars as there are between a spruce and a cedar.

I only build with spruce, but I think the design is equally as important as the wood.

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I agree with what Colin said above, Euro spruce and WRC cedar are the most popular, and I would recommend WRC for a beginner. There is a huge difference in sound between the cedar and spruce, not so much because of player ability, but the cedar will sound better much quicker because it doesn't take nearly as long to open up. A new spruce guitar will take 2-3 years of being played every day for hours to open up, and may take as long as 10-15 years to open up completely. That's why so many of the older spruce guitars sound so great (I often wonder if that's why people prefer the old pre-war Martins because they've had so long to open up). Many did not sound nearly as good when new. A cedar guitar on the other hand sounds almost completely open brand new. Also, I think a spruce guitar gives less 'color' to the tone, allowing the advanced player to really get a wider range of tones through his ability. Cedar on the other hand sounds very 'Spanish' if that makes sense. I don't think it's harder to get a good tone with spruce, it just takes more ability to manipulate the tone with spruce.

Style of music is also a consideration. I prefer cedar for a lot of the traditional Spanish style classical, but prefer spruce for more contemporary, European, and baroque type music.

Rosewood is pretty much the standard for back/sides. I wouldn't stray too far from this for a first classical. You can't go wrong with a Torres/Hauser type design, and like was mentioned above, be careful not to overbuild--that will kill the sound of a classical.

Good luck!

John

The whole opening up thing can be a bit misleading. Its enjoyed quite a bit of discussion over the years but its hard to give it the right context.

If I made a cedar guitar, and a spruce guitar, and strung them up at the same time I am confident the spruce guitar will be immediately better (to my ear) than the cedar guitar.

I agree that spruce guitars develop over years of playing. But one should be able to make a spruce guitar that is at least the equal to a new cedar guitar when new, before any opening up.

The development of the spruce is not a handicap - it should already be a very fine sounding guitar from the get go. It is added potential. [a potential that cedar mostly lacks]

No one should have to rely on a guitar "opening up" in order for it to sound good.

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What I'm finding, since I started keeping track of such things, is that the lighter the top the better. My best classicals so far have been the ones with the lightest weight tops, and it doesn't matter as much in terms of 'quality' of sound what the species of wood is. Different woods do seem to give a different 'character' of sound, all else equal.

The limiting factor in the structure of the guitar is the static stiffness needed to resist the bridge torque. All else equal a less dense piece of wood will generally yeild a lighter top for a given static stiffness. So, wherever your wood comes from, try to find a low density piece. Generally speaking, Englemann and Euro spruces, and Westernd Red Cedar, tend to have lower densities than Sitka or Red spruce, or Redwood, but there's a lot of overlap. Just as an example, I've got one Red spruce top that has the same stiffness and density characteristics as a Red cedar one, although the cedar is usually considered a 'light' wood and Red spruce 'heavy'.

Great info.
Curious, What about Macassar, Maly Ebony, Cambodian rosewood (denser and heavier than BRW)?
Thanks,

Follow your gut feelings!

Check out all the tops you have and as Al has said pick the lightest in weight!
B & Sides can be any wood you have and want to use!
Do not be fooled into thinking they make the guitar!
They flavor the sound if used right!
if you like trad. sounding guitars the Torres bracing is
a good place to start!
Do some reading and research into bracing styles and pick one your comfy with and go for it!

Mike Collins


www.collinsguitars.comMike Collins39051.6722800926

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Mike Collins

You've gotten excellent advice above, but I'm going to have to agree with Mike Collins. It's your first in this style--the type of wood you use won't make that much difference. Just pick a quality example of whatever wood you have, and build it to the best of your ability. The only caveat I'd pass along is to not use a light-colored wood for the B&S; other players probably won't accept a maple or cypress body on a "classical," and he'll want peer respect for his instrument. Remember, your "customer" is a beginner. Give him a good, solid-wood guitar (for proper inspiration), and if he sticks with it he can order a fancier instrument later. In fact, he'll most likely do that no matter what you give him for his first!

[QUOTE=jfrench] I agree that spruce guitars develop over years of playing. But one should be able to make a spruce guitar that is at least the equal to a new cedar guitar when new, before any opening up.

No one should have to rely on a guitar "opening up" in order for it to sound good.[/QUOTE]

I agree with you Joshua, a good spruce guitar should sound 'good' when new, but they definitly do improve with age. I have played two new identical guitars side by side, one spruce, one cedar, both by a very well respected builder. My opinion is that cedar sounds better right out of the chute, all other things being equal. Spruce just sounds a bit light when new. I wouldn't choose a guitar on this though, I would choose the top based on the music I intended to play with it. Pablo Escobar--get cedar, Bach--go with the spruce.

The way I've heard it explained, spruce apparently takes more time to break in than cedar because it is a more resinous wood. With age resins become increasingly brittle, and with play these resins are fractured by sound. As this happens the guitar becomes increasingly responsive and mellow. Guitarist talk about this in terms of a "green" guitar "opening up" with time. I've heard of some contraptions made with big spekers, etc, where they try to vibrate the top and break it in quicker. This is only part of the process. The guitar top needs to be aged enough so the resins are brittle enough for the sound to break them up. I'd be skeptical of anybody who claims they can rush this entire process.   

John   

Wouldn't 'baking the top' make the resins brittle, therefore cutting time for 'opening up'?

I agree that German or other Euro spruce is generally a superior top wood, but Engelmann can be equally good, and some builders actually prefer it. As a general statement,it is slightly less stiff across the grain than German, consider a starting top thickness around 3mm (compared to 2.5mm or so for German. Of you are lucky enough to have access to a supplier that will let you select your top, the ones with lots of silk or flecks seem to be more desireable.

I was talking to Jeff Elliott a while back about the "slow to open up" aspect of Spruce, and he said if you build with an open harmonic bar, the Sruce will sound better quicker, but within a year or two a closed harmonic bar top will catch up (and is earier to build)

I thought I'd go ahead and offer my two cents worth, since I build mostly classicals.

I like both WRC and spruce, and it is true that a well-built guitar with a WRC top will sound great from the moment it is first strung up. BUT -- I've also learned that if I've done a good job on a spruce-topped guitar, it will also sound very nice as soon as it's strung up. Maybe not quite as full as the WRC topped one, but very close.

Now, regarding spruce choices, since nobody has mentioned it yet, I would like to point out that the Lutz hybrid spruce that Shane sells is excellent stuff. It is my preferred top wood. I like it better than the Euro spruce I've bought from LMI and Allied, to be honest.

For back/side wood, it's hard to beat regular old EIR for both its sound and its value. Other nice sounding tonewoods I've used for classicals (besides Brazillion) are coco, pau ferro (aka Bolivian rosewood) and padauk. Padauk can be a pain to bend, but it does sound very nice. I really don't care for mahogany for classicals. It has a "warm" sound, which is not what most classical players are after. For this same reason, I would not use walnut or maple. Tonewoods with a bright, metallic tap tone seem to work better for classicals. They don't have highs in abundance the way steel-strings do, and can use all the highs they can get.

As for plans, I guess really it's a matter of personal preference. Nothing wrong with going with the standard Torres seven fan pattern that Cumpiano and Sloane use in their books. But if you want to spend a little less time tuning the top for balance, you might consider a set of Miguel Rodriguez plans. I'm sure some folks will disagree, but from what I've heard and read, Rodriguez's asymmetrical bracing pattern seems to require less adjustments than others. I haven't built a guitar yet using the Rodriguez pattern, but I've built several with my own asymmetrical pattern, and I have found that there are fewer quiet areas along the fingerboard with this pattern than there were with guitars I've built using the standard Torres 7-fan pattern.

Finally, I'd like to add a bit to Al's comments regarding building "lighter". You'll need to leave your steel-string mindset behind when you build a classical. The top bracing on a classical does not need to be robust at all. I shape my fan braces to be about 1/4" wide -- sometimes as narrow as 0.200" -- and somewhere between 1/8" and 3/16" tall. I tend to leave my shorter braces taller than my longer ones, which seeems to help with the highs. I prefer fan braces to have a triangular cross section and have recently begun giving them more of a parabolic longitudinal contour, rather than scalloping them at all. I also sand down the perimeter of the soundboard more than the center. My spruce tops are usually around 0.085" at the center, tapering to about 0.075" or so at the edges of the lower bout. Add about 0.010" to these measurements for WRC.

Another way to reduce weight is to use Spanish cedar instead of mahogany for the neck wood. Spanish cedar has been the traditional neck wood for Spanish builders for many, many years. It's softer than mahogany and can be a bit of a chore to carve and sand because it tends to be fuzzy, but I've gotten to where I prefer it because of its weight advantages.

I also prefer lively feeling guitars, and for this reason I thickness the back set to about 0.085" -- and I resist the temptation to overbrace it, as well. If the back set is on the thick side, the guitar might have somewhat better projection but will tend to feel cold and unresponsive for the player. Me, I'd rather sacrifice a bit of projection for that responsiveness. I find its easier for me to get inside the music with a lively feeling guitar.

Best,

Michael

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This thread has turned out great. Specfic and general info.

Yes -Shanes tops are premo!!!!!
Light in weight ,responsive to input and beautiful!!!
Also perfectly cut!!!!
Mike Collins
www.collinsguitars.com

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Mike Collins

I'm planning to try a Lutz spruce top at some point. Gotta find somewhere to work it in - don't want to sneak it in when someone's expecting Alpine Spruce, and I already have one of Luigi's tops set for a guitar for myself. I'll find a way to try it though.

By then I'll probably have been successful prying a Caucasian Spruce (picea orientalis) soundboard from Colin's hands... eventually though I'll give the Lutz a try.

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Bob

I would agree with the comments stating that EIR would be more "acceptable". Classical folks can be a bit resistant to anything different.

In classicals mahogany is usually seen as being a low end instrument.


Joshua

I can solve your problem. Get that Lutz top and build a nice guitar and send it to me. See, problem solved.

[QUOTE=jfrench] I'm planning to try a Lutz spruce top at some point. Gotta find somewhere to work it in - don't want to sneak it in when someone's expecting Alpine Spruce, and I already have one of Luigi's tops set for a guitar for myself. I'll find a way to try it though.

By then I'll probably have been successful prying a Caucasian Spruce (picea orientalis) soundboard from Colin's hands... eventually though I'll give the Lutz a try. [/QUOTE]

OK, Joshua I can take the hint! I was hoping to get over to Houston and show you how to build guitars properly, but that doesn't look likely in the near future. So, I guess I'll have to sort one of my very rare P. orientalis tops out for you (you know the ones that were being saved for my finest lutes!) and send it over to you.

Before any one else asks.........

ColinColin S39053.1947222222

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Colin - can't thank you enough! Can you have it checked for posionous radiation first?

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